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Forum:Something thats been a problem for a while
Okay you don't need to read this all. But its the root of the problem when you turn the focus of a page completely. I'll give the example of some of the problems the wikia faces. *Its like this; the fandom accuses Ring of being like Miku. *On VO the critics can't see why she looks like Miku. No matter what you do you can't explain them to them, I've given up. *It gets to a point where it notices and the Miku formula page is made to say "Miku influenced other Vocaloids designs" *VO forumers criticize this page. Well I can compact all that down to the words "Miku influences other Vocaloid designs" and reference the example of Gakupo borrowing the cyber-clothes thing from the CFM Vocaloids. But what I often find is... Well... That doesn't solve the problem! Now, tell this same statement to a Vocanoob? They can look at Ring and Miku and sort of see the resemblance, and if the Japanese fandom notices the resemblance I sort of think its a legit call; like Big Al and Cul. mind you... the overseas fandom also noticed it too before she was even released, but thats not the point I'm getting across. If there is one single problem the wikia faces its bringing itself to a standard where it can please Vocanoobs. So we moved all fanmades to another wikia except the ones we need here. I see someone at VO complain that we're limiting the information and that we should cover them. Except... The Vocanoobs take these characters as something very real, not acknowledging their made up. Now... I don't get it. When you sit down and read many of those fanmades, honestly... They didn't have much consequences of their existence. Whereas "Miku formula" saves me having to sit down and write all this out on every single page whenever this rears its head. And I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to do that. It just clogs pages down, better to have one page that deals with it. And the big thing with these Vocaloid fanmades? We had ones like "Zatsune Miku" whose been dead since 2009. I keep mentioning this because they seem to get attached to them like their the oxygen in the air at times. But the thing is, fanmades are just the "fanfiction" of Vocaloid and we don't cover fanfiction here. No one is saying "Ring is a clone of Miku", only explaining that some felt she was so close that she could be a clone. And heres the thing... They are in a way no better then each other! But these are just two examples, the big two I've seen in the last month. The further you go back the more things like this come up. Another older example waaaay back in 2010 when I first started editing Vocaloid stuff. I revamped the wikipedia page? I get whines from VO that its not focused on the characters anymore! In other words, its been one bumpy sleigh ride dealing with the veteran fans for a while now, to the point where I'm not actually sure who is worst at times. I've come to the conclusion the last few days, its just not worth at times trying to please the veteran fans. This isn't the first time we've had problems, and its one of the reasons I've seriously considered calling it a day at the end of this month. I'm seeing how the next 4 days go, things are getting better at the moment. Also, the whole "Korean can do English" from SBS regarding SeeU is driving me nuts. When the studios make bold claims we still have to cater for those claims; no matte how farfetched they are... But the information has tossed around SeeU's page like a twig in a current. I know this also divides opinions too. But heres where VO comes in; I got a lecture on VO when I mentioned this in response to some critism of my own on SeeU "Korean does English" without a care for the fact SBS made a big claim. No one on the wikia is saying that she does English as well as a English even, because this isn't even true and there are still some big differences between Korean and actual English language. Nor did I myself say that either. What everything saying is, SBS claimed you can use Korean for English and gave you the means also to do this. I can't write this any more black and write then that but people think its written in black, white and a hint of green. >_< But I've been on the net for 12 years and I know a little bit more then others. I've been a wiki-system editor since 2006... Some of the pages that were "fluff" were test pages to see what works and what doesn't, I've done this several times over the years myself and lots get deleted because its just organizational business. None of it is meant to stay. No wikia is perfect and sometimes these pages need to be created to see what isn't going to improve things. Most get deleted anyway in the end when they've served their purpose and helped me sort out what I want to do witht he main pages, just holding information until a proper home was found or the information as redundant. I don't know what everyone feels and I'm sorry for the block of text. but you know... This problem isn't going away. I will note its one hell of a lot easier to just focus on improving things for noobs and ignoring the veterans fans at times. One-Winged Hawk 00:14, February 26, 2012 (UTC) Comment Ok, I think you're concerning too much about the opinions of other people. Personally I think this wikia has been behaving the best possible for a staff of around 10 regular editors in a topic so diverse as Vocaloid. Really it's easy criticize, but when the matter is fix the thing by yourself just a few ones are interested in spend their time fixing the thing they're criticizing. You know, much ado about nothing. I think we re doing quite well. If someone has a problem with the wikia's format is welcome to join as contributor and express their opinion. For that we have the talk pages and the forum. Adept-eX 02:44, February 26, 2012 (UTC) : This wiki helped me a LOT during my Vocanoob Era, and I think this is all easy to read. What was on my mind when I was a lurker were those fanmades, I even ponder what they're doing if they don't even have a voice; that's NOT a Vocaloid. The more fanloids there are, it made me more confused at first. I'm not sure about other readers, but that's how I felt. : I agree with Adept; I don't exactly know how you'll improve things for noobs to the wikia, how can it be more simpler than this? If it gets less specific people'll just make their own theories and actually believe them. And the problem is with Vocanoobs, they'll believe anything anyone says even if it's just... Ridiculous. (Eg.Servant of Evil is an anime!) Unknown.System 02:50, February 26, 2012 (UTC) :: You got a point there. We have to be simple and reliable. For avoid speculation with the complex Vocaloid Series we need to improve the citations and references. In the case of the official Vocaloid' articles I think we are quite well, but in the case of the series and original songs we are a kinda defficient. :: Also we need get rid of the personal appreciations and opinions, a problem which persists in the Producers' articles and the Derivative Works section in the Songs' articles. My policy is ignore the fandom and focus yourself to be the most informative and impartial possible. Adept-eX 05:02, February 26, 2012 (UTC) :::I've always avoided speculations the best I can, even the stuff thats unreferenced isn't speculation. I will note with Circus-P we had a discription that stated he was a "very talented" producer. However... In terms of how things go here... His songs aren't the best around. It shows favouritism to describe someone like that because most of the overseas Vocanoobs don't know the first thing about music. But he isn't the only case so I agree with what you say. :::It was the same as with the whole "Reception" thing. That was something found on many software paegs of wikipedia so I introduced it here. But there aren't enough reviews that criticise Vocaloids to do it with, so I just replaced it with popularity because THAT was sourcable. :::BTW, I'm impressed with your responses though here Adept, I've not been confident on wikia editing for the past few years. 11:18, February 26, 2012 (UTC) :I'm trying to sort my log in right now. Since firefox is causing me hassle I've switched to Explorer. Trouble is, explorer doesn't tend to like me, hence why I'm not logged in right now.... :Well I will note the critism of the vets does prove useful at times, they point out when we make mistakes. The only reason why I am even bringing this up is because that they influence noobs too here. To a point there are simply some things I don't care about what they say. The stuff on fanloids? Thats irrelevent and noobs just take their existence too far. 11:18, February 26, 2012 (UTC) :It seems to balance things, a fandom tab can be created lol. Or simply leave criticism to the forums. I actually liked the fandom reaction sections and planned to copy the content to the forums or a blog just for history purposes and see if they can be debated against. :What bothers me about VO is that everyone has something to say about the wiki or vocaloid fan-blogs but no one bothers to correct it or contact the owners. I mean, it would be helpful if they added some of their own views to something besides the messageboard. We are all fans of the same software. -- Bunai82 (talk) 17:01, March 2, 2012 (UTC) ::Normally, the wikias are treated as part of the fandom info sharing service. One-Winged Hawk 17:49, March 2, 2012 (UTC) Okay I just wantt o make it clear, this ISN'T a vent or rant, this is just observation. I confess I added a note on Akikoroid's wikia page about her private licensing without referencing it, so I got critisiced on VO. However, as I have explained, I can't without getting my contact who told me in trouble (Huh? I know people so what?). Its like the last of about 4 times I've ever used them (and one of those wasn't Vocaloid related as per such ¬_¬). And I only used them that time because it was the pre-Vocaloid 3 release era and I was curious on the private licensing thing (I was actually asking about Meaw, I never got a straight answer since Yamaha's been focused on Vocaloid 3). Yeah I know I should have sourced that, but I couldn't... Not without getting someone fired from their job? >_< Sometimes I get annoyed with them over such an issue, if you seem to know too much they accuse you of being a "know it all". As Vocaloid fans, and the source of a lot of veteran fans, I expect the average VO forumer to know some basic stuff about this anyway. Hence why I always link to VO at Yahoo answers. Sometimes its common logic (i.e. not everyone can work with Japanese Vocaloids, I know I can't so it can result in a waste of money). Sometimes its just that you've read that same thing over and over again (I for one know more on Miku then I care about). They can do the same if they edit a wikia. Okay I'm usually right... But... I have my moments where I forget odd things and slip up, like failing to distinguish Akiko from Akikoroid. :-/ Some of those guys are now on VocaTones, so really... There is no excuse for ignorance these days. This isn't 2009 where both wikipedia and the wikia don't have enough information to tell you more then 6 Vocaloid exist. Okay things weren't that bad... But you get what I mean right? Point I'm making is that Vocaloid itself has come a long way, I'd say there are too many "hipsters" but honestly... I barely understand the term and until I came to VO, I didn't even know that word existed in that format. To me "Hipster" refers to a pair of girls trousers (also known as hip huggers) that don't go any higher then thalf way up the hip, leaving the stomahc and equallevent back area exposed. Was usually worn with a G-string and the consquences were that when you sat down the hipsters went down the backside of your butt and the nickers went up so everyone could see the colour of your underwear. Lol. I'm from a different generation to half the guys at VO, I can't help it. I remember when pokemon first became popular... And I played with the first Generation of "My Little Pony", I remember watching that show on TV along with He-man (what, I was a Tomboy girl when I was a kid, I actually watched more boy's shows then girls). Anyway enough of that. The oddest thing is as well, theres that dated history topic at VO which seems to get more rep as a reliable source of information on the history of Vocaloid when it slips into a vocaloid fans pov at times (e.g. critising Ann without mentioning this is not the pruimaryreaction, its a secondary reaction to her). I don't get it? >_<' Never once said a wikia is a reliable source. Its usually more reliable then most sources around, you only tend to occusionally find 1 statement ehre and there that needs removing, and I'm pretty good at purdging stuff when that comes out of the works. Anyone who say a wikia is completely reliable is kidding themselves. They are usually more reliable then most of whats out there though, that much you can always be assured of, wikia are only suppose to be a starting point though, from there you go to the sources to read the information yourselves. Okay in our case we're asking everyone to suddenly know twelve levels of Japanese they don't always know! But we can't help it right? XD One-Winged Hawk 09:01, March 24, 2012 (UTC) :So recently I got really hurt by something said on VO forums. I brushed it off but tere was a second thing said. I don't know if I can handle this Beaucrat stuff until the end of December, I've been considering quitting for over two months now... The Vocaloid fandom is proving very drama-driven right now and the guys at VO are proving to be some of the best and at the same time worst fans. :Also, something someone said on VO forums finally got to me beyond these incidents... I won't repeat that. I've been put off editing, so excuse me for the lack of edits this week I need to gather my confidence again and remind myself why I'm here. I found it very offence and it really hurt and I don't even want to begin to talk about it... I don't want trouble so I'm best avoiding VO until further notice to avoid encountering them again and clashing with them. In otherwords I feel very withdrawn. :I've been hanging out with the One Piece fandom and having fun for 2 days now. I forgot what fun meant. I wish the Vocaloid fandom was like that... :-/ :Amazing thing is, I when I entered the OP wikia I got greeted so friendly. I'm one of the founding members and I set up a LOT of their framework for the wikia. Its just what I wanted to do here with this wikia. Hence why I always planned to retuire from day 1. As I explained at VO forums as well over PM to a staff member, I don't usually stick with a fandom for more then 2 years for various reason. :Most have a series that ends the community dies with it. :And the thing is... We're it. The biggest information sharing this fandom has to gather information from. :Vocaloidism isn't up to date and takes time to get going sometimes. VO forums is only for on the spot info and every other source tends to just talk about a handful of Vocaloids. There is no big infostructure, not like other fandoms. VO forums is also pretty much it for veteran fans, theres no other forum coming close without being full of clueless peeps who barely know about Vocaloid. So the pressures on us to be there until something comes along that can support things. :-/ :On the upside, our articles comments are working and after spending time in the OP chat I've almost changed my mind. I MIGHT give a try this weekend to see what happens. :On the downside I miss being a One Piece fan more then anything now... And I almost regret returning to Vocaloid in the first place. One-Winged Hawk 22:20, March 28, 2012 (UTC) ::Then break from VO for a while and focus on your other hobbies, be it here or One Piece. ::Pfft, I am not a fan of these "bronies", but that doesn't stop me from enjoying FiM, since I was a fan of MLP in general. Though obviously with any fandom there is the side you never wish existed; it can limit your interaction with the fandom, but shouldn't stop you from your other activities. ::Reason why I am not on VO is because some of the regulars can be rather harsh, and the youngins can be rather hmm ignorant. But I do check out there for news and opinions on things, since I don't engage in talk about Vocaloid with others. -- Bunai82 (talk) 00:51, March 29, 2012 (UTC) :::Been doing that. :::I don't mind the bronies, because a lot of them make me laugh. XD :::I think what makes me unsettled just with VO is the last time I had someone as arrogant as some of the guys at VO forums was actually a guy in the OP who acted as the local "know it all" because he lived in Japan and "knew more then the One Piece wikia". >_< :::I think I'll try turning on our chat and see how we deal with it... But I am definately taking a break from VO for a few weeks. Don't seem to want me around anyway haha. ;-) One-Winged Hawk 07:29, March 29, 2012 (UTC)